WEBVTT 00:02:41.000 --> 00:02:51.000 I'm gonna just keep doing the intro time. Do you maybe just want to pop in the chat how to play with the speaker for that person and see if you can troubleshoot that with them. 00:02:51.000 --> 00:02:53.000 Yeah, let's see. I'll see if I can do that 00:02:53.000 --> 00:03:14.000 Yeah, no problems. So if this is your first introduction to work logic, we are a team of consultants who work with employers to minimize the impact of inappropriate conduct in the workplace and build a really positive and safe work environment for everybody 00:03:14.000 --> 00:03:30.000 Our services include things like investigations and investigation training, conflict through mediation, facilitated conflict resolution, I should say, through mediation, facilitated discussion, and other restorative processes 00:03:30.000 --> 00:03:42.000 Conflict management coaching, culture reviews and values workshopping. We also have our independent complaints reporting service, which is called Integrity Line 00:03:42.000 --> 00:03:59.000 And we do deliver training across workplace behaviour as well, which we're going to talk a lot about today. We also do have a couple of published books, one on this particular subject that we're going to discuss today called 00:03:59.000 --> 00:04:18.000 Fix your team, the tools you need to rebuild relationships, address conflict, and stop destructive behaviors in the workplace. I know that a lot of you who I can see in this room already have a copy of that, but if you haven't and you are interested, head over to the resources page on our website to pick one up. 00:04:18.000 --> 00:04:33.000 Now, one of the other things that we do at WorkLogic is our blog or what we call our WorkLogic insights. Our latest blog was all about Respectful Workplace Behaviour. And I'm joined by Tanya Hunter today who wrote that blog 00:04:33.000 --> 00:04:38.000 And he's going to talk with me about all things respect at work. Hi, Tanya, thank you so much for coming along. 00:04:38.000 --> 00:04:49.000 Hi, Storm. Hi, everyone else. Welcome to everyone else who's joining us today. Michelle, hopefully you were able to get your audio trying with a different speaker. We'll see how we go. 00:04:49.000 --> 00:04:51.000 Yeah 00:04:51.000 --> 00:04:54.000 Welcome. 00:04:54.000 --> 00:05:08.000 Thanks, Tom. Well, let's get started then. And one of the things that I wanted to do is talk about why we've named this session the good, the bad, the awkward for our webinar today. So do you want to start us off with that 00:05:08.000 --> 00:05:22.000 Yeah, well, I think we considered a few titles, but we liked this one because when you're dealing with respectful workplace behavior, you're really dealing with each of those kind of facets of behavior. So if we start with the good 00:05:22.000 --> 00:05:25.000 It's really all about 00:05:25.000 --> 00:05:36.000 Having consistently respectful workplace behaviors so we can create that good culture so that we can increase psychosocial safety and be mindful of our 00:05:36.000 --> 00:05:52.000 you know, obligations around psychosocial safety in the workplace. So that we can get trust going both ways, you know, coming from leaders towards workers and employees, that emotional connection, that perception 00:05:52.000 --> 00:06:08.000 that people, leaders are reliable. That's the norm, not that you know we're having inconsistencies in how we're treating people. There may still be conflict, but we have ways of dealing with that. It's constructive, and it's healthy conflict. I think we always think of conflict 00:06:08.000 --> 00:06:16.000 as a negative thing storm, but it's not necessarily negative, you know. We sometimes will 00:06:16.000 --> 00:06:32.000 Can grow through disagreement and getting people's opinions and things like that. We also want to have the other thing that happens in a good culture is you have inclusion and belonging will strengthen as people feel that they're valued and treated fairly and that they are respected 00:06:32.000 --> 00:06:36.000 you know, member of the team. 00:06:36.000 --> 00:06:47.000 Yeah, absolutely. And I like the way that you broke that down as the cultural outcomes of Respectful Behaviour in the workplace 00:06:47.000 --> 00:07:04.000 So you and I, particularly, we've been delivering a lot of training in this space, the Respectful Workplace Behaviour, which is aimed at employees and leaders, and I think it's really important that we have these little, kind of, sidebars with those employees and those leaders 00:07:04.000 --> 00:07:16.000 about what culture actually is. Otherwise, I can feel it… I feel like it comes across as a bit fluffy sometimes, when you're not somebody who works in this space 00:07:16.000 --> 00:07:30.000 So when I'm having these discussions with those training participants, I found it's really helpful to sort of compare and people attending today might find this helpful as well when you're having conversations in the workplace. But 00:07:30.000 --> 00:07:46.000 Comparing workplace culture to our individual personalities. So it's complex, it's complicated, it's a really unique system of all of our traits, feelings, habits, and behaviors 00:07:46.000 --> 00:07:52.000 sort of translated to a culture that makes a workplace different from others. 00:07:52.000 --> 00:08:07.000 So like our personality culture grows from a really consistent demonstration of our values, of our attitudes and our experiences over a period of time. And I think it's really important for employees to understand 00:08:07.000 --> 00:08:24.000 That every individual both contributes to that culture and is impacted by it as well as an employee there. So we want to see those great things that you just pointed out, that the psychological safety, the trust, the inclusion, all of those things in our culture 00:08:24.000 --> 00:08:35.000 And I think that understanding at the individual level about what culture is and how people can contribute to it, I guess, is the first step in getting people on board. 00:08:35.000 --> 00:08:52.000 Yeah, absolutely, Storm. I think, you know, and Respectful behavior, it spreads, it's contagious. The more that we treat people with respect, the more that they treat us respectfully as well. And when we talk about the bad too, we'll talk about how that 00:08:52.000 --> 00:09:08.000 treating people respectfully also helps us deal with those bad situations, but if we have that kind of respectful interaction, then when we have people that are kind of outliers, people who might interact more negatively, and let's face it, you know, we all have a range of personalities 00:09:08.000 --> 00:09:26.000 Some of us are more optimistic, some of us are grumpier people, but people will tend to adapt and fit in and become part of that, you know, more dominant group, the people that are demonstrating that better level of respect, and we get that cycle then 00:09:26.000 --> 00:09:27.000 Yeah. 00:09:27.000 --> 00:09:38.000 And that's what we want. So that good is really when we have, you know those cultural outcomes. But that also does then translate to really measurable results at an organizational level. You have much lower safety incidents. There's 00:09:38.000 --> 00:09:51.000 University of New South Wales study that found that safety incidents decreased by 64%, which is quite a big number. People will stay. You know, you get better retention of employees. 00:09:51.000 --> 00:10:06.000 You get engagement and productivity. People want to be at work and they're engaged and participating when they're at work. And as well, you get lower absenteeism. You don't have presenteeism where people are just kind of in the workplace, but not actually doing their work 00:10:06.000 --> 00:10:22.000 And yeah, you don't have those costs of turnover. So it's really the best outcome for everyone from a business point of view and just from a point of view of wanting to be in the workplace and having the workplace be a place that we want to be an enjoyable place 00:10:22.000 --> 00:10:36.000 If we can have those respectful relationships and really nurture those interactions. And then, you know, call out behaviors that are not respectful or aren't aligning with what we want in our culture 00:10:36.000 --> 00:10:57.000 Yeah, and that probably leads us to the next element of the topic, those behaviours that we need to call out. And that's the bad, as we've called it. 00:10:57.000 --> 00:10:58.000 Yeah. 00:10:58.000 --> 00:11:10.000 Yeah, and I guess, you know, we it's funny because we spend in different aspects of our roles, like when we're doing investigations, we're probably dealing more with the bad when we deal with training, hopefully we're doing dealing with the good or just the awkward 00:11:10.000 --> 00:11:11.000 Yeah 00:11:11.000 --> 00:11:12.000 But yeah, it can be easy to forget that, you know it's not it's not all bad. But so the bad is when you know we have those 00:11:12.000 --> 00:11:17.000 Those things we don't want to see occurring at that cultural level, we have 00:11:17.000 --> 00:11:32.000 In a team or in a workplace, you'll see things like psychological safety is dropping because people are speaking up or sharing ideas. And reporting problems. There can be stress and anxiety and burnout 00:11:32.000 --> 00:11:35.000 Because people just don't feel 00:11:35.000 --> 00:11:47.000 valued, there's incivility and disrespect, that's linked to, you know, people expressing anxiety. We used to… I don't hear it as much anymore, but people used to talk a lot about it being a toxic workplace, you know 00:11:47.000 --> 00:12:17.000 That's the kind of term that people will use. They'll be emotionally exhausted and it erodes people's confidence and their self-esteem, which then, you know, affects how much we want to be at work, how productive we are at work 00:12:18.000 --> 00:12:19.000 Yeah 00:12:19.000 --> 00:12:20.000 That kind of repeated disrespect, even those kind of like, you know, those little microaggressions, those tiny little comments, that rudeness undermines how people see their competence, and their worth. It might not be what people are intending, but it has that effect 00:12:20.000 --> 00:12:35.000 And then we also have, you know, that physical manifestation that happens. Like, people aren't able to sleep, they get headaches, you know, you can even have really serious things happen, like your blood pressure can go up, you can have, you know, heart attacks, stress, things like that. So that's the really extreme end of the bad. 00:12:35.000 --> 00:12:37.000 Yeah. 00:12:37.000 --> 00:12:38.000 Yeah 00:12:38.000 --> 00:12:53.000 Yeah, there's a whole range, isn't there really of things that go on. And we talk a lot about that in our training, particularly around those physical manifestations of issues 00:12:53.000 --> 00:13:11.000 Because I think people tend to focus a lot on the psychological impact when we're dealing with behaviour, but they do absolutely translate to those issues. So, for example, I'm someone… I will get attention headache when I'm feeling stressed, so that's my manifestation in a physical way 00:13:11.000 --> 00:13:17.000 So yeah, absolutely all really good points there. 00:13:17.000 --> 00:13:24.000 And, you know, so those are the… what we've called those cultural outcomes. But 00:13:24.000 --> 00:13:27.000 What we also see 00:13:27.000 --> 00:13:46.000 with this is those organizational… the flip side of those organisational outcomes, like the higher absenteeism and presenteeism, the increased turnover, which means there's a loss of talent, loss of resources, added pressure on the teams that are sort of left behind with those missing positions 00:13:46.000 --> 00:14:03.000 There is disengagement or what we've come to know as quiet quitting, where people deliberately, very deliberately reduce their efforts or drop the quality of work. They get this 00:14:03.000 --> 00:14:18.000 I just want to come to work and do my job and go home kind of attitude and approach. So they just come in for the basics. And of course, as well from the organizational perspective, when we have this kind of culture, this kind of workplace 00:14:18.000 --> 00:14:35.000 There's inevitably going to be reputational damage to the organization eventually if those behaviours do start to form part of the culture. They go on for so long and they start to 00:14:35.000 --> 00:14:36.000 Yep 00:14:36.000 --> 00:14:40.000 to be embedded in the culture. We've got websites we talk about, like Glassdoor, which is owned by that job search company, Indeed 00:14:40.000 --> 00:14:54.000 where people will post anonymously on it about their experience at the workplace, their experience with the culture, their experience with leadership. And because they're anonymous, they can be very sort of candid about their experiences and 00:14:54.000 --> 00:15:05.000 Candidates will often go and check those types of websites before deciding to apply. So that risk for an organization is very real there as well. Yeah. 00:15:05.000 --> 00:15:23.000 Yeah, definitely. Melissa's actually added a comment as well about the bad talking about people being ignored or not listened to. That can be another sort of really disempowering thing for people in the workplace as well. Yeah, so I guess one of the topic storm that we did want to cover off on today is 00:15:23.000 --> 00:15:41.000 When it comes to being respectful, respect at work, I don't think that people or sometimes people don't understand that the obligations are both on the organization and also on the employees. I mean, I think there's a lot of focus. There can be a lot of focus on how leaders 00:15:41.000 --> 00:15:51.000 An organization should manage bad behavior, but it doesn't always kind of flow down to how individuals in the workplace, what their obligations are. So, you know 00:15:51.000 --> 00:16:09.000 Employees can definitely tell you, you know what's my employer supposed to do for me? What are my rights? What are my rights? What do they need to do for me? And there's a lot of talk as well these days about psychological or psychosocial safety 00:16:09.000 --> 00:16:10.000 Yeah. 00:16:10.000 --> 00:16:23.000 And people will be quoting that legislation more and more in complaints, sometimes assisted, I think, quite a lot by AI. But when it comes to that individual responsibility, there does need to be more awareness 00:16:23.000 --> 00:16:28.000 About that, I think. 00:16:28.000 --> 00:16:37.000 Yeah, I think you're right about that. And that's something that again that we make sure that we cover off in our appropriate Behaviour training 00:16:37.000 --> 00:16:52.000 employers obviously have really clear obligations under OHNS legislation to provide and maintain a safe physical and psychological working environment. They've got obligations to identify those psychosocial hazards 00:16:52.000 --> 00:16:57.000 That are in things like your work design, your systems of work 00:16:57.000 --> 00:17:08.000 management of work, how work is carried out, as well as those sort of personal work related interactions, things like bullying, sexual harassment, aggression, and 00:17:08.000 --> 00:17:20.000 those respect related behaviors. The organisation also has obligations around putting controls or controlling those risks 00:17:20.000 --> 00:17:32.000 The risks from those hazards using a hierarchy, I suppose, of elimination first and foremost, if it can, and then reduction if those risks can't be eliminated 00:17:32.000 --> 00:17:39.000 But that's the organization. There's also 00:17:39.000 --> 00:17:43.000 Obligations on individuals in terms of having 00:17:43.000 --> 00:18:04.000 This requirement to take reasonable care for their own health and safety, and for others that, you know, might be affected by your actions or your omissions in the workplace. So that means, you know, not engaging in behaviours that can cause harm or create risks of harm, either physically or psychologically 00:18:04.000 --> 00:18:21.000 And with all of the compliance obligations, I suppose, on the organisation, the employee is also responsible for cooperating with any OH&S directions or controls that the organisation puts in place, whether it be, you know, following 00:18:21.000 --> 00:18:38.000 Standard operating procedures for equipment use or policies for behaviors or attending training or following reasonable management action. Okay, so where there's an obligation on the employer, there's usually a like obligation on the individual employee 00:18:38.000 --> 00:18:40.000 Yep 00:18:40.000 --> 00:18:55.000 There's also the need for employees to report OHNS incidents as well and hazards, including those psychosocial hazards. So the organisation can then address those things 00:18:55.000 --> 00:19:08.000 Now, I did one of these webinars 00:19:08.000 --> 00:19:09.000 Yeah. 00:19:09.000 --> 00:19:15.000 couple of months back now, it might have been, maybe it was just our July, June or July, which will probably be up on our webinars on demand now, where I spoke about the barriers to reporting inappropriate behaviors with Emanair who is our Integrity Line Manager 00:19:15.000 --> 00:19:17.000 And that was in the context of whistleblower hotlines 00:19:17.000 --> 00:19:20.000 Yeah 00:19:20.000 --> 00:19:32.000 And I think this is really where getting into that's one of the kind of systems you can have in place. You really need to have systems in place to support people to speak up. And I think that's where we kind of get to the awkward 00:19:32.000 --> 00:19:52.000 Because when we start talking about respectful behavior, that can be awkward in the sense of it can be clumsy, it can be uncomfortable for people. You know, we might have to address situations or times when we ourselves have not, showed up 00:19:52.000 --> 00:19:57.000 Yeah. 00:19:57.000 --> 00:19:58.000 Yeah 00:19:58.000 --> 00:20:01.000 at work in our best… as our best self, and we may have created an awkward situation. So I think one of the reasons that that it's awkward is that there can be lots of different 00:20:01.000 --> 00:20:17.000 understanding of what respect means to people, and respect means different things to different people. I mean, there are certainly generational differences in what people expect from the workplace, and how people expect to be treated and accommodated in the workplace 00:20:17.000 --> 00:20:32.000 You know, some people might feel that being direct and honest and to the point is respectful of people's times, but for other people, that might be too blunt or too abrupt, and they might see that kind of approach as aggressive or confrontational 00:20:32.000 --> 00:20:39.000 Or perhaps, you know, even in sensitive, kind of lacking in emotional intelligence. So 00:20:39.000 --> 00:20:54.000 where you have these kind of conflicts where there's different personality types at issue, it can be really challenging to navigate, because how many times, Storm have you and I dealt with like, you know, a culture review or an investigation where someone says, well, that's 00:20:54.000 --> 00:21:03.000 You know, X is always like that. That's their personality 00:21:03.000 --> 00:21:04.000 Yeah. 00:21:04.000 --> 00:21:14.000 Well, what I was thinking, yeah, as you were saying that our neurodiversity, which we're becoming more aware of and the idiosyncrasies that sort of come along with that. But that being said, I think that we are becoming more aware of 00:21:14.000 --> 00:21:15.000 Yeah. 00:21:15.000 --> 00:21:28.000 other people and the diversity of them. Yeah, yeah 00:21:28.000 --> 00:21:29.000 Yeah 00:21:29.000 --> 00:21:33.000 Yeah. So, I mean, one of the other obvious issues in navigating Respectful Behaviour would be those barriers about, you know, establishing a speak-up culture. And I think that there can be a fear of repercussions or backlash, so people worry about, you know, that cultural stigma 00:21:33.000 --> 00:21:42.000 Being seen as difficult or oversensitive, or people retaliating, or even just, you know, oh, you're the fun police, you can't take a joke. 00:21:42.000 --> 00:22:07.000 And that then, you know, people might feel like they can be discredited, or, you know, they're losing some influence in the workplace, but that is why we have, you know, lots of protections against victimization. And it's interesting to me because so often people will be 00:22:07.000 --> 00:22:08.000 No. 00:22:08.000 --> 00:22:12.000 will be afraid to speak out or to even just to speak to someone directly about their behavior because of the fear of repercussions. But in most cases, and you know that's not every case. Some people 00:22:12.000 --> 00:22:15.000 Can be quite 00:22:15.000 --> 00:22:29.000 confrontational when that happens, but in a lot of cases, people will react 00:22:29.000 --> 00:22:30.000 Yeah 00:22:30.000 --> 00:22:47.000 quite genuinely, and be quite upset because they weren't aware that their behavior was having that impact, or nobody's ever raised it with them, you know, and people think that they know the impact that they're having, but sometimes people are really, really unaware of that. So, I mean, what did you and M discuss around, kind of, some of those barriers to reporting? What organizational barriers 00:22:47.000 --> 00:22:48.000 Yeah. 00:22:48.000 --> 00:22:58.000 Yeah, so there are a few things that we discussed, but trust was probably the biggest one. And I know that you mentioned trust earlier and you were speaking about it from that kind of multi-directional trust that kind of reciprocal trust from peer to peer or from 00:22:58.000 --> 00:23:01.000 Yeah. 00:23:01.000 --> 00:23:18.000 supervisor to report, and vice versa. But we looked at trust from the perspective of from an employee to the organization, really. So employees obviously need to feel safe, they need to feel confident in the organization's ability to 00:23:18.000 --> 00:23:23.000 Both effectively and fairly manage respect at work 00:23:23.000 --> 00:23:40.000 So if people don't believe the organization protects them or takes their concerns seriously, the system for managing appropriate behavior and complaints around that, it exists on paper, but it's going to fail in practice if that trust isn't there 00:23:40.000 --> 00:23:58.000 And trust is going to be based on the employee's experiences and their observations around leadership integrity and competency. So in other words, you know, what's the ability and the willingness of leaders to address things properly 00:23:58.000 --> 00:24:14.000 Trust is going to be based on their observations of transparency in any complaint process and the steps that will unfold. Consistency by the organization in how they handle issues in a similar way. So if 00:24:14.000 --> 00:24:26.000 Seeing other people raise concerns previously, that's going to impact their feelings towards the organization and their level of trust. 00:24:26.000 --> 00:24:31.000 All the time. Yeah 00:24:31.000 --> 00:24:32.000 Yeah. 00:24:32.000 --> 00:24:38.000 That's a big one, isn't it, Storm? People will often say, you know, oh, I know that someone complained in the past and either nothing happened or they left or you know Yeah 00:24:38.000 --> 00:24:39.000 Yeah. 00:24:39.000 --> 00:24:50.000 Yeah. And it can be a hard one to tackle, because a lot of the time things are done, but there's so much privacy and confidentiality around those things that you know you can't disclose to the employee. So they have this perception that nothing gets done. But yeah, that one is a big issue 00:24:50.000 --> 00:24:57.000 And I think the other thing that I was going to say about trust is 00:24:57.000 --> 00:24:58.000 Yeah. 00:24:58.000 --> 00:25:12.000 Their observations around the victimisation, as you mentioned before, so what protections and support are available to them is going to impact the amount of trust that they have on the organisation. So it's really important to recognise that that 00:25:12.000 --> 00:25:28.000 Significantly impacted by their past experience and the word of other employees. We all know that they talk, they know what's going on in each other's lives despite confidentiality provisions when it comes to complaints 00:25:28.000 --> 00:25:39.000 If employees have previously raised concerns, they've felt ignored or felt exposed as the other one or unsupported, they're going to be reluctant to come forward 00:25:39.000 --> 00:25:45.000 Confidentiality is obviously really important for 00:25:45.000 --> 00:26:09.000 The complainant as well and can be a barrier, like I said, if there's no transparency about what that genuinely means. So a lot of the time there's just this statement in policies and procedures. This is a confidential process. You know, don't you discuss it with anybody else, but for the employee, they kind of think, well, what does that mean on your behalf as the organization 00:26:09.000 --> 00:26:20.000 So I think being clear on that and clear about what that means is really helpful, as can anonymity as well. And we spoke about this with M&A 00:26:20.000 --> 00:26:37.000 It really helps to support people in speaking up about respectful workplace behaviors, which is why those anonymous whistleblower hotlines are so important. So those like our integrity line. And what we've said in the past is those 00:26:37.000 --> 00:26:55.000 sort of how those three things interact. So we've got confidentiality that protects information. We've got anonymity that protects identity. And then we've got trust and that enables the action. Okay, so when all three of those things are embedded within a system or a process that manages respectful behaviour 00:26:55.000 --> 00:26:57.000 People are going to be more likely to speak up. 00:26:57.000 --> 00:27:05.000 Yeah, and I think when people are comfortable speaking up 00:27:05.000 --> 00:27:06.000 Yeah 00:27:06.000 --> 00:27:17.000 They will do it earlier, hopefully, and that gives the organization, you know that opportunity to intervene earlier, to deal with things on a hopefully a more informal level. The other training that we've been doing a bit of this year is bystander training 00:27:17.000 --> 00:27:42.000 are up from bystander to upstander, upstander training, which is really empowering people to speak up, and it's about discussing how do you deal with, you know, those microaggressions that I mentioned earlier, or just those awkward situations where somebody's, you know, made a comment 00:27:42.000 --> 00:27:43.000 Yeah. 00:27:43.000 --> 00:27:50.000 or made a joke that really is offensive, but we kind of don't know what to do about it. So we know that when you can intervene earlier, that's going to reduce the severity and the duration of the issues, because, Storm, I'm sure you have… there's not a bullying investigation 00:27:50.000 --> 00:27:56.000 That you have had where you can't go 00:27:56.000 --> 00:28:00.000 Yeah. 00:28:00.000 --> 00:28:01.000 Yeah. 00:28:01.000 --> 00:28:05.000 I can see a point if there had been a discussion at this point, and we wouldn't find ourselves six months a year, you know, 10 years down the line, doing the investigation. Yeah, I know, I know. You can always see that moment 00:28:05.000 --> 00:28:08.000 The benefit of hindsight, as they say. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, yeah. 00:28:08.000 --> 00:28:14.000 So really, you know, when we can have that early intervention, it prevents that 00:28:14.000 --> 00:28:29.000 you know, secondary systems or other issues from coming up, and it increases the capacity of people to ultimately stay in the workplace and avoid the kind of extended absences or resignations, you know, whether it's someone needing to be stood down for an investigation 00:28:29.000 --> 00:28:46.000 Or someone going out on stress leave because you know they've discovered that there's an investigation against them or the complainant feeling like the issue hasn't been addressed and now they're going off on stress leave. So, you know, if there is some sort of conflict where we've got two people disagreeing about something and 00:28:46.000 --> 00:29:02.000 They both feel there's a lack of respect because there's different values, different expectations, and different communication styles. And one of the things I do, which is I find really interesting, I haven't done as much of it as I'd like recently, but is conflict coaching, which is really about 00:29:02.000 --> 00:29:03.000 Yeah. 00:29:03.000 --> 00:29:16.000 That's just about assessing yourself. What are the values when I'm having an interaction or a disagreement with someone? What are the values that are being triggered for me? It's nothing to do with the other person. It's like, it's about what am I bringing to it. So, you know, people have really different styles 00:29:16.000 --> 00:29:35.000 for managing interpersonal conflict, and it really does come down to those values that we have, you know, whether I have a style where I'm the kind of person who's very confrontational, and I kind of attack, or I just go silent, and I freeze, or I, you know, am immediately accommodating and just compromise 00:29:35.000 --> 00:29:47.000 That can really mean that we don't actually resolve things in a healthy way, particularly if someone's very accommodating or compromising 00:29:47.000 --> 00:29:48.000 Yeah 00:29:48.000 --> 00:29:59.000 that can leave a lot of resentment then. And that's just simmering under the surface. So early that early intervention is really about getting in at the point before things escalate, and we're ending up with kind of unhealthy, stressful 00:29:59.000 --> 00:30:08.000 situations and making sure that we're giving people, like, that kind of upstander training, the tools and the guidance for employees, and also for leaders 00:30:08.000 --> 00:30:17.000 Really working with leaders to manage 00:30:17.000 --> 00:30:18.000 Yeah. 00:30:18.000 --> 00:30:30.000 difficult behavior, because that can be quite a stressful thing, and we often, you know, people have technical skills, and we put them in leadership positions, but we don't always think about how much time and effort needs to go into to managing people. So, helping, you know, giving your leaders those skills to navigate in that space 00:30:30.000 --> 00:30:53.000 It really can be tricky because you do need a lot of flexibility in your approach and emotional intelligence to resolve the issues, particularly now where you mentioned neurodivergence, people need different approaches, but even things like a flexible workplace schedule 00:30:53.000 --> 00:30:54.000 Yep. 00:30:54.000 --> 00:30:58.000 You know, there can be a perception that somebody's getting a benefit that someone else isn't getting. There's a lot of complexity in managing teams these days. 00:30:58.000 --> 00:31:15.000 Yeah, absolutely 100% agree with you there. You know, we can just see that by some of the complaints that we get through. So Tanya, in talking about early intervention in that case, if I were to ask you, what would be the key 00:31:15.000 --> 00:31:22.000 Tool or guidance in that case that you would recommend for organizations to really drive that early intervention piece 00:31:22.000 --> 00:31:39.000 I really think when it comes to the early intervention, it's about being able to have that conversation, you know, that awkward conversation. A lot of procedures around complaint management do make good attempts at normalizing direct discussions, having, you know, the difficult conversation 00:31:39.000 --> 00:31:40.000 Yeah. 00:31:40.000 --> 00:31:45.000 or the courageous conversation some organizations call it 00:31:45.000 --> 00:31:49.000 Yeah 00:31:49.000 --> 00:31:50.000 Yeah. 00:31:50.000 --> 00:31:59.000 Yeah, it's usually it's something like, you know, the first step is try and resolve the resolve the matter yourself, have a conversation yourself. Yeah, I see that a lot. 00:31:59.000 --> 00:32:00.000 Yeah. 00:32:00.000 --> 00:32:10.000 Having that having that conversation between employees to resolve issues rather than avoiding conflict as that first step. But I guess the problem there is that, you know, how do we get employees to a place where they're comfortable and confident to do that? And obviously there are some situations in which we would never suggest that 00:32:10.000 --> 00:32:11.000 Yeah. 00:32:11.000 --> 00:32:25.000 that a conversation is the right way to go. But you really need a simple kind of structured conversation guide for employees. So the conversation doesn't get into a, you know, a kind of a clinical dissection or a 00:32:25.000 --> 00:32:29.000 Yeah. 00:32:29.000 --> 00:32:30.000 Yeah. 00:32:30.000 --> 00:32:38.000 Like a litigation or an interrogation about who did the right thing. And, you know, there are a lot of models around that. There's the SBI model, the Crucial Conversations framework, the three conversation model 00:32:38.000 --> 00:32:40.000 But really what 00:32:40.000 --> 00:32:55.000 what is missing sometimes is that opportunity to practice doing that. And, you know, there's a lot of online modules and things people have, but that doesn't often… it gives you the knowledge and the understanding sometimes, or the kind of, you know, this is what you should do, here's the model 00:32:55.000 --> 00:33:09.000 But it doesn't give you that opportunity to practice and role play. I know people, a lot of people don't like role playing, but it is a great way to learn and to have those conversations in a way that can be authentic 00:33:09.000 --> 00:33:27.000 you know, and refreshing when you need to have it. So you can really have that in training. You can have those role-playing and that opportunity to practice. So there's a refreshing of techniques, and I would encourage you, you know, if… if you're encouraging people to be upstanders and have those conversations. 00:33:27.000 --> 00:33:42.000 giving them a model, and then also if you know if they're not doing it into training, giving them an opportunity to practice, whether it's with their their leader or with someone else, you know, if you've got a contact officer, practice having that kind of conversation. Like 00:33:42.000 --> 00:34:11.000 That can be really done in an ad hoc way by leaders, by HR, through contact officers, as I said. So I think that would be a blind spot for a lot of organizations, and something that's really quite easy to do, but it just requires a little bit of, you know, embedding that in our practice 00:34:11.000 --> 00:34:12.000 Yeah, there is. 00:34:12.000 --> 00:34:15.000 Yeah, I agree. We touched on it a little bit in our appropriate training, appropriate Behaviour training for employees, but there's certainly much more of a focus of that in the bystander to upstander that you mentioned. 00:34:15.000 --> 00:34:20.000 But I think that whole piece around 00:34:20.000 --> 00:34:21.000 Yeah 00:34:21.000 --> 00:34:35.000 Practice also applies for early intervention really at the leadership level, so kind of like that next step up. So we go peer to peer, and then it's, you know, for the leaders. So when employees aren't comfortable having those one-on-one conversations, they go to their manager for either a mediated conversation 00:34:35.000 --> 00:35:05.000 or for the manager, then to have that one-on-one conversation on their behalf. And like you pointed out, we do see a lot of those written tools, those frameworks being made available to managers and leaders, which is absolutely fantastic and we need that theoretical kind of knowledge 00:35:05.000 --> 00:35:06.000 Yeah. 00:35:06.000 --> 00:35:09.000 To assist, but not a lot of opportunity to practice those conversations in line with those tools. So, again, I think you mentioned it before, HR generally do a really good job in providing that ad hoc role-play and guidance to leaders 00:35:09.000 --> 00:35:22.000 in this space, but I think it would be better to see that consistent refresher training and practice as a matter of course for leaders. We recently rolled out our 00:35:22.000 --> 00:35:38.000 So we've got our appropriate Behaviour training for employees, and as you know, you know we've recently rolled out the sort of next level, which is leading appropriate Behaviour training. We've had some really great feedback around that and the level of attention that we give to this particular aspect of leadership during that session 00:35:38.000 --> 00:35:55.000 Which includes that role play. And you mentioned it before, but I'm going to say it again, I know that role-playing can be really cringey for people. I get it, I don't like, I don't love it myself, but it is genuinely the best way to test out techniques in a safe, low-risk environment. 00:35:55.000 --> 00:35:57.000 Yeah. 00:35:57.000 --> 00:36:12.000 And, you know, I might be a little bit controversial here, but I actually think that this should form part of the performance review cycle for leaders. I think it's great that we have competence-based objectives, that we have goals around values 00:36:12.000 --> 00:36:31.000 But why not bring in a practical component to that assessment? Like, you know, I'm going back to my exams at university and doing those practical, you know, assessments. And I actually think that that would be a genuinely good idea for leaders to go through that and have that assessment 00:36:31.000 --> 00:36:32.000 Yeah. 00:36:32.000 --> 00:36:39.000 GiveLead is a scenario a couple of times a year, and have them navigate a conversation as part of their Pdp meetings. You know, why not? I think 00:36:39.000 --> 00:36:43.000 I think that's a great idea, Storm. I really like that. 00:36:43.000 --> 00:36:50.000 Yeah. 00:36:50.000 --> 00:36:51.000 Yeah. 00:36:51.000 --> 00:36:54.000 Yeah, you can be creative with it, but it just needs to be really embedded in the system and give them those opportunities for practice. And of course, for feedback as well. 00:36:54.000 --> 00:37:05.000 And while we're on the topic of leadership as well, I do drone on about this quite a lot because it is one of the most important things that you can do as a leader 00:37:05.000 --> 00:37:11.000 Proactively monitoring the team and culture within your immediate team as well is just so important 00:37:11.000 --> 00:37:22.000 So being across how everyone is behaving and performing and role model yourself by having those courageous conversations with people 00:37:22.000 --> 00:37:39.000 you know, when we talk about monitoring and really being across your team, this is about, you know, checking in with your reports regularly, asking them about, you know, any obstacles that they're experiencing, getting to know them personally and what their personal values are, and what their triggers are, so you can 00:37:39.000 --> 00:37:51.000 Stop predicting the outcomes of certain interactions or situations that they might face in the workplace, so you can put support in place leading up to those things. 00:37:51.000 --> 00:37:55.000 Yeah, I just wanted to sort of bring that up as well. I know I detracted a little bit there. 00:37:55.000 --> 00:38:10.000 Yeah, yeah. No, I think those conversations between managers and reports are really going to be important, particularly around those conversations around psychosocial health or psychological health because you mentioned that there are obstacles that might 00:38:10.000 --> 00:38:18.000 In Pleasant, if you can have those really open conversations like, you know, what about work is causing you stress? 00:38:18.000 --> 00:38:19.000 Yeah. 00:38:19.000 --> 00:38:32.000 Why or where do you feel, how do you feel unsupported? What changes do you need? That's really going to help identify the psychosocial hazards at that kind of local level on the kind of base level before people 00:38:32.000 --> 00:38:35.000 You know, things are getting so negative that 00:38:35.000 --> 00:38:39.000 you've got a lengthy complaint, and, you know, you've got a list of 00:38:39.000 --> 00:38:56.000 hazards and in that compliance code, probably, you know, with the help of AI, we're seeing a lot of that, and it does put a lot of pressure on organizations and managers as well. You know, when you get like a 40 or 50 page complaint, you can't just sort of 00:38:56.000 --> 00:39:04.000 Turn a blind eye to it, can you? 00:39:04.000 --> 00:39:08.000 It could be 00:39:08.000 --> 00:39:09.000 Yeah. 00:39:09.000 --> 00:39:13.000 No, and I think what I will say is that I think AI assisted complaints is a whole other webinar, but truthfully, you know, they could probably represent a bit of a psychosocial hazard themselves by way of increasing the job demands on the people needing to dissect them. 00:39:13.000 --> 00:39:20.000 Well, I think just for courts and for the Fair Work Administration, they've sort of flagged that as 00:39:20.000 --> 00:39:21.000 I saw. Yeah 00:39:21.000 --> 00:39:33.000 creating demands for them, but yeah 00:39:33.000 --> 00:39:34.000 Yeah. 00:39:34.000 --> 00:39:39.000 Yeah, yeah. But you're right, like those early genuine conversations around psychosocial hazards between a leader and their employee, and you don't even have to mention that word. We don't have to use that terminology. It's all about, again. 00:39:39.000 --> 00:39:51.000 What's going on for you? How can you be supported? But those conversations are going to identify those hazards, and when that conversation is happening, you move straight into consulting about what the needs 00:39:51.000 --> 00:40:09.000 to sort of change those things, you explore those controls alongside the employee. So you're kind of meeting your obligations under that compliance code anyway. And then, of course, you've, you know, you step away and it's all about following through on that discussion and implementing those supports or controls to eliminate or reduce 00:40:09.000 --> 00:40:10.000 Whatever that hazard is, yeah. 00:40:10.000 --> 00:40:22.000 Yeah, and I think the other thing about that storm is that, you know, while managers absolutely need to be having those conversations frequently, even if people are saying, oh yeah, everything's fine, I'm great. 00:40:22.000 --> 00:40:37.000 might be different one day to the next, but really what that does, it makes that world of difference. It shows that leaders are, you know, it shows them how to be a safe space for people, and how to be approachable. That's something that comes up a lot 00:40:37.000 --> 00:40:44.000 You know, when people will say I don't find that my leader is approachable. Yeah, I can't go to the person 00:40:44.000 --> 00:40:45.000 Yeah. 00:40:45.000 --> 00:40:59.000 Yep. And it's so important. Yeah, it's so important that leaders be that person. And a lot of this is to do with role modelling those behaviors. It's about modeling vulnerability and accountability by admitting to uncertainty or mistakes or 00:40:59.000 --> 00:41:08.000 Normalizing learning from failures in a kind of no blame way, and what that might look like is just a conversation around 00:41:08.000 --> 00:41:23.000 Here's what didn't work. Here's what I would do differently next time. Okay? And what that does is it teaches people in the team that, hey, I can have those conversations too. I can speak up and admit to errors or whatever it is 00:41:23.000 --> 00:41:32.000 The other thing that is really important for leaders to create or to help them create a safe space, or be that safe person is learning to respond 00:41:32.000 --> 00:41:33.000 Yeah 00:41:33.000 --> 00:41:42.000 with genuine curiosity, when people come to them before judgment. And that's going to really help people 00:41:42.000 --> 00:41:50.000 feel safe speaking with them 00:41:50.000 --> 00:41:51.000 Yeah. 00:41:51.000 --> 00:41:52.000 Yeah, and I think as well, being, you know, being accessible or being approachable is a bit about visibility as well. You know, being present, being available 00:41:52.000 --> 00:41:58.000 Being genuinely interested in the people in your team, like so often, you know, people will talk about 00:41:58.000 --> 00:42:11.000 You know, we just go straight into the morning meeting. There's no hi, there's no hello, there's no how was your weekend? Or people will complain about a leader who's always, you know, they're always in meetings or their door is always shut 00:42:11.000 --> 00:42:23.000 It's, you know, navigating that sort of space between, I need to have my privacy to do some of these things, but also being open to people when they do come to you. So, I think that's really going to promote 00:42:23.000 --> 00:42:34.000 approachability. And the other thing I think is that when leaders really do need to have those kind of difficult conversations with people, is finding that balance between 00:42:34.000 --> 00:42:46.000 setting clear expectations and boundaries while still staying sensitive and supportive. It's… it can be a… that can be a difficult line to walk, because, you know, there are accountabilities, regardless of 00:42:46.000 --> 00:42:52.000 what's going on. We still need to be able to be showing up and doing our jobs. 00:42:52.000 --> 00:43:11.000 So it's finding that fine balance why if somebody is experiencing, what can you do to sort of accommodate what issues that they're having while still sort of reminding them about what the accountabilities are? Yeah, it's a difficult line to walk. 00:43:11.000 --> 00:43:12.000 Yeah. 00:43:12.000 --> 00:43:25.000 Yeah. Yeah, it is a balance, but they need to get that right because you want to make sure that the working relationship is still strong at the conclusion of that conversation because I guess at the end of the day, those discussions are all about getting staff to perform 00:43:25.000 --> 00:43:46.000 and to behave in a way that the organisation needs them to. And the leader's job really is to support, to motivate, to teach them how to do those things. 00:43:46.000 --> 00:43:47.000 Yeah. 00:43:47.000 --> 00:43:50.000 you know, intimidate them into doing those things, or challenge in a hostile way that kind of breaks down that relationship and then kind of causes other issues as well. So, yeah, a really tough balance 00:43:50.000 --> 00:43:54.000 Yeah. 00:43:54.000 --> 00:43:55.000 We have, we have 00:43:55.000 --> 00:44:17.000 Just looking at the time tab, we have covered a lot of ground today. I feel like we could just keep going, but I want to pull out a few key points before people start logging out, because I really think that these are 00:44:17.000 --> 00:44:18.000 Yeah. 00:44:18.000 --> 00:44:23.000 You know, if you're going to take anything away from this webinar, you know, make it these couple of things and that's the Respectful Behaviour measurably improves safety, improves retention and performance 00:44:23.000 --> 00:44:32.000 Both organisations and individuals have obligations to create and maintain that psychological safe workplace 00:44:32.000 --> 00:44:51.000 Aside from the elimination of psychosocial hazards, early intervention is your goal as well, okay? So the absence of practiced conversations can be a real blind spot and barrier to early resolution, so see if there's some way you can work that into your systems. 00:44:51.000 --> 00:45:06.000 Trust, transparency, and consistency are the key organisational elements that will support a speaker culture for your employees. And lastly, as well, the biggest lever that leaders have is 00:45:06.000 --> 00:45:18.000 in their everyday behavior, modelling vulnerability, inviting honest conversation, being visible and supportive. It is right on 00:45:18.000 --> 00:45:19.000 It is 00:45:19.000 --> 00:45:40.000 1.15, so we don't have much time for questions. However, I do want to answer one that has come through the chat because I said I would, so hang around if you want to hear this 00:45:40.000 --> 00:45:41.000 Yep 00:45:41.000 --> 00:45:42.000 Yeah 00:45:42.000 --> 00:45:43.000 But the question was, keeping in mind your comments, Storm, how do we tell others that things are being done, but we can't tell you about it? So this is where we were speaking earlier about that confidentiality and trust and people 00:45:43.000 --> 00:45:59.000 Feeling like the organisation is not doing anything because they don't have that information and can't have that information. So the question is, some people think managers never manage or terminate, but we can't tell people that that's happened. 00:45:59.000 --> 00:46:06.000 How do we get that message out that we do handle issues? 00:46:06.000 --> 00:46:26.000 Great question and really tough. I think it's about educating people about what you can and can't do and why you can and can't do those things. So talk about the fact that there is confidentiality. We need to respect the privacy of everybody involved in this situation that includes 00:46:26.000 --> 00:46:29.000 You know, Tanya, Tanya Hunter, who engaged in the Behaviour story time 00:46:29.000 --> 00:46:42.000 It's okay, you can use me. It's fine. 00:46:42.000 --> 00:46:43.000 Yeah. 00:46:43.000 --> 00:46:48.000 Yeah, just having that conversation. So the reason that we need to do this, is to protect their dignity and their psychological health as well. What I can tell you is that this is the process that we followed 00:46:48.000 --> 00:47:10.000 These are the outcomes that can take place from that type of conduct. So they wouldn't normally be listed in your policy. It'll say something like, you know, here's the available disciplinary action or something like that. And just give them the information as to, you know the steps that might have been taken 00:47:10.000 --> 00:47:11.000 Yeah 00:47:11.000 --> 00:47:22.000 or the available sort of actions that say, you know, I can't actually tell you specifically, you know, what occurred on this occasion, but no, this is the organization's stance on these behaviors and you 00:47:22.000 --> 00:47:23.000 Yeah. 00:47:23.000 --> 00:47:29.000 That's that. Does that make sense? Can you add anything to that, Tan? I feel like I would 00:47:29.000 --> 00:47:30.000 Yeah. 00:47:30.000 --> 00:47:36.000 Yeah, we did do a webinar earlier in the year that was about communicating what you do after an investigation. So there might be some additional things in there. 00:47:36.000 --> 00:47:38.000 Yeah. 00:47:38.000 --> 00:47:39.000 Yeah. 00:47:39.000 --> 00:47:50.000 But yeah, I think you've pretty much covered off on its storm. And sometimes people, you know, if… if then there's a course of appropriate workplace behavior training or training for leaders, sometimes people might know that that's come about as well because of concerns that people 00:47:50.000 --> 00:47:59.000 Yeah 00:47:59.000 --> 00:48:00.000 Yeah. 00:48:00.000 --> 00:48:05.000 Yeah, yeah. One thing I will say is that sometimes it's the fact that, you know, the full circle isn't completed for the complainant as well. So sometimes it's that sort of concluding conversation that is actually missing 00:48:05.000 --> 00:48:21.000 for them. So while it's important to, yes, manage your manage the actual complaint and the situation and the respondent, at the end of the day, you've got to come back. You've got to track back around to the complainant and have that conversation so we can 00:48:21.000 --> 00:48:22.000 Yeah. 00:48:22.000 --> 00:48:36.000 To draw a line in the sand and say, okay, this is what's happened, this is, you know, the situation, this is what we expect moving forward. So 00:48:36.000 --> 00:48:38.000 Yeah. 00:48:38.000 --> 00:48:40.000 Yeah 00:48:40.000 --> 00:48:41.000 Yeah. 00:48:41.000 --> 00:48:44.000 Yeah, and I know there is that webinar that's somewhere on the on the website, and there was a blog about what we do after the investigation and communicating the findings and things like that. So I'd say if that's, yeah, have a look at that 00:48:44.000 --> 00:48:45.000 Yeah, yeah. 00:48:45.000 --> 00:48:48.000 Have a Google on the WorkLogic website. 00:48:48.000 --> 00:48:54.000 Alright 00:48:54.000 --> 00:48:55.000 Very, yeah 00:48:55.000 --> 00:49:02.000 So we have run over a little bit. I mean, I guess there's a lot to talk about, isn't there storm around this? And particularly everything that's coming up now around psychosocial safety and how that 00:49:02.000 --> 00:49:03.000 Yeah. 00:49:03.000 --> 00:49:04.000 Massive space 00:49:04.000 --> 00:49:06.000 Leading people to kind of be more conscious about stuff. So 00:49:06.000 --> 00:49:07.000 Yeah. 00:49:07.000 --> 00:49:22.000 Sorry that we've run out of time. If you do have any questions, though, we don't want to hold anybody up. Some of you may have already gone. That's fine. Please feel free to email us at inquiries@worklogic.com.au. If you have any specific questions about training, coaching 00:49:22.000 --> 00:49:38.000 fix your team, or the whistleblower hotline, or the integrity line. Have a look at the website. And once again, thank you so much, and thank you, Storm. We hope this has been a helpful and thoughtful, insightful session for you, and we look forward to seeing you. I think our next web 00:49:38.000 --> 00:49:54.000 Webinars. Actually, we're going to talk about how we conduct an investigation in psychosocial psychosocially safe way and protecting psychological safety in the course of an investigation. So, yeah 00:49:54.000 --> 00:49:55.000 Looking forward to that 00:49:55.000 --> 00:49:56.000 Yeah, amazing. We'll see you all there at the next one. Thank you so much. Thanks, Tom. 00:49:56.000 --> 00:49:59.000 Thanks, everyone. Bye. 00:49:59.000 --> 00:50:00.000 Thank you, see you later. 00:50:00.000 --> 00:50:01.000 Thanks. 00:50:01.000 --> 00:50:20.000 Thanks, guys.